20070416
lose the pretension
I was really into it inthe beginning, but then it got nasty, with dickwands casting evilego spells all over the site, be less about yourself, remember who you already were, get over who you are now
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24 comments:
are you serious?!
As one of the dickwands I am aware of the egoevil spells I've cast, but I think this post is pretty highly negative and lacking in specificity. I'm assuming "it" is the EPN - and that this was posted as an attempt to remedy the nastiness which has superseded the "into it" feeling that drew you into the pizza in the first place.
I know that I sometimes come off as negative (or drunk/drugged) and ego-centric. Sometimes this is my fault, but other times it's not intended. And not always bad - crits aren't always fun and sometimes I get upset (and I've upset others I hear), but decent crits (of which this site has many) are essentially positive. I don't think we should get rid of all the negativity, and I don't think it's possible to get rid of too much ego, but I'd like to see the site blossom into a beautiful flower - all great posts, great images, great discussions, lots of buffalo to hunt... But then I'm also with Henry - things are good just drifting this way and that, without too much bureaucracy.
I'm not sure exactly who is "doc," but I would like to know more about what you think we should do to improve the site, or how dickwands like me should change our behavior. Sometimes I forget what it is "pretension" so please tell me your ideas.
Recently I'm getting really into manners and politeness. It's a model of social control that is more effective and humanistic than the police-state the usa is becoming. With manners everyone polices themselves so there are no cops, or rather everyone has a cop inside themselves, but nobody gets arrested. The worst punishment would be social censure*, which is what I think doc was trying to met out. I think we should have censureship! I'd just like it to be done in a more focussed manner.
*not "censor"
actually farley i disagree...to most of it...not all but most...at this point this is a collection of friends, just talking...im not really interested in posts that just talk yang about the blog and the people on it...especially the people who post and comment the most...especially at a time when i am trying to encourage more contribution. i just dont really think there is a place here for a post like that.
I do have to make one thing clear: even though I think we should police ourselves, I still think the EPN needs it's own armed force of some kind - even if they are droids.
i interpreted the initial post as having really nothing to do with the blog.
i think we need more dickwands around, or maybe the dickwands just need to be wandier. or dickier.
EPN functions on initiative-based decision making. Occasionally someone puts a post out that's looking for some kind of consensus, but in general, if you'd rather EPN were different, you just have to Gandhi it up and "be the change you want to see in the blog." You can start a thread about something that's not pretentious, or else contribute comments to other peoples' threads that transcend the ego. You are a beautiful flower. Feel the power inside you.
I think H-dogg and me post a lot about wanting to change things because we are too lazy to actually change anything... Sometimes our post experiments work, and sometimes they don't.
But I would have to say, there is a problem on this site that doc has put his finger on in his own raffishly inarticulate way...
That is that EPN is a total sausage party. WTF is up with that? Where all the peppers?
Tings can keep going as they are, but there's reasons to change too. That's what I'm saying.
This can be interpreted in a few different ways, and I hope Doc sticks around to respond, because the whole thing sounds pretty dismissive, and I think we need as many people here as possible.
I think if you're just going to duck your head in and say people are a bunch of dicks and then drop "get over who you are now", than that's wack, and lame, and a cop-out. It's a weak jab at no one in particular, and has no substance. At least be specific if you're going to talk some shit.
If the post is speaking to the criticality of the bloggers here, maybe we need to remind people at the top of the page that they are free to request whatever type of criticism they seek. We established the rule early on that if you are just looking to share something, you can say as much, and people have to respect that and check their negativity. Most of us have asked for others to be hyper critical of our stuff, and so that's what we've gotten, and it is part of what makes this blog so great.
Secondly, if this is a comment on the type of material being posted, than say so. Respond. Interact. Be offensive in a constructive manor instead of casting cryptic judgments.
Considering that this follows a string of posts about grilled cheese recipes and discussions about movies we watched as kids, I'm lost on the whole evilego thing. It's not all "I, me, mine" here if that's what you're getting at.
And that's what I understand least about what you're saying... because in the beginning it seemed to be more about people posting projects that they were personally involved with, whereas if anything, lately it's been more random (and I think most people are cool with that too).
So anyway, whatever. Like total cool dude says, we need more dickwands if anything. As Lord Helmet would say, "Keep firing assholes."
that's exactly the kind of thing I was referring to g-reg, longwinded, self-impotant
Well that's silly.
I mean, if you're going to make vague slams at no one in particular, I don't think you can blame anyone for wondering why.
"Self-impotant?"
Pretty revealing there, don't you think? You fucking wanker. The things you say aren't egoless, they are just the evidence of a low-power, damaged mind. So what was it? Drugs? Mental illness? Or were you born that way? I can't decide what annoys me more; how fumblingly vague your language is, or how you accuse g-reg of being longwinded. That's my pizza-boy who's got a lot to say and says it well, who's brought my attention to an assload of fascinating and personally-relevant ideas, who has probably put up more of his own personal work here than anyone else. And what have you put up? Nothing of substance. You opened up the orfice you call a mouth and shit all over the site. You think you're some sort of pithy, enlightened guru who can doctor up our egos? What do you fucking know? It's real easy to play it cool and aloof but most people can see through the silent-type mind-game; at some point someone's going to call you on it. I may be long-winded or imprecise or idiotic, and some of my projects may be failures - but I think I'mplaying it pretty real, and I think the same of most everyone on this site. So if you really consider yourself so much holier than us, show us the money. Show us the timeless and tragic work that will justify your attitude, that will make us say "doc can talk like that to us because he's really on a higher plane and we should consider ourselves lucky to recieve anything from him, even if it is a shitstain. We'd really like to see what you've been working on! Let's see! Put it up ASAP!
longwanded rather, and self-impotent, and silly is my middle name so serious drew
and superserial eff
also, I LOVE DRUGS
but not as much as my bf and f
yes, g-reg has posted more than anyone else, a welcome acknowldgement
can i just cut this post off? so far its been entirely unproductive, and nasty...i think some nastiness was due, but i think the people who are interested and contribute to this post in the spirit of helping out fellow artists and bringing up interesting topics realize the bullshit in this post...i mean this shit is so negative and has not left me doubting how great i think this forum is...just because somebody has a personal beef, or multi-personal beefs...this thread doesnt need any more back and forth arguing...the post was bullshit...the people who contribute here and enjoy this blog know that...and if you dont like the blog then just stop fucking reading and go fuck off...i say we just ignore this shit...im not going to delete it, but you know...unless somebody has something big to say, then lets just leave this shit alone and move on the the things that i thought were going really well in this site...also just for the record i revoked "doc"s membership...not to be a fascist asshole, but because i felt really insulted by what he posted and i really dont want to hear any more shit like that...i created this forum to help encourage other artists to create and share work and ideas...not to try to make asses out of the people who are here...this shit does not belong here and i think the comments to this post reflect the same feelings.
i think deleting this thread woudlnt' be out of line.
personally, i think this site has been pretty great - there has been some interesting debate, some great and weird ideas, and some awesome art posted here in the last couple months. i think there should be MORE people posting art - and MORE people posting in general.
the spirit of this space lies in productive, generative content. it's not like the space is going to run out, so if you're bored or uninterested or even irritated by people's posts...well, it's pretty fucking easy to just skip over them. i can't imagine most people have waded through a tenth of the drek i've posted here - but it's still good to have the space to present said ideas. so like... negavibes aren't cool, man...
you have a good point TCD...and i think i may delete this thread...maybe in like 24 hours...because i just want to say that i have re-invited doc to join...we had a private email explaination session, and i think there were a number of things that he wants to change about the blog...like little things...things like we all kind of have...and they just kind of came out in a negative way while posting in a frustrated state...also he has a lot to say (of the non-negative variety) and lots of work to post...and like everyone has been saying...we need more posts and we need more people posting them...so i think i will give some people a chance to read this explaination and then i will delete the post and we can forget that this whole negavibe nonsense happened....also i felt really bad that i removed membership from somebody who wants to contribute.
That's crazy. Disfests are a deeply ingrained part of usa culture - from the Burr-Hamiton duel (Jerzee!) to the basic form of the DJ battle a la hip-hip. Negativity is one of the main content-generators on the internet. Revolution is a negative reation. Most political critiques are fueled by negativity - I can't count the number of times that I've seen a conversation about someone's creative social or political ideas get shutdown because it was deemed to negative or depressing. But it's a cold world. Like TCD says, "negavibes aren't cool" - but not all productive discussions or idea-generating processes are "cool." Sometimes they are painful, sucky, and unentertaining.
Now, with my previous strongly electronegative broadcast I think I've made it pretty clear how unimpressed I were with doc's noise. But I don't think we should shut down all negativity.
The true essence of sucksville is neither positive nor negative, but the absence of any charge whatsoever. Spunklessness is the antithesis of pizza power.
That said, I think Henry has laid his finger on the root of the problem - that is, it's boring to listen to someone blabber on about themselves. That's kind of been happening with the EPN (a bit - I don't think things are dire...) I think the discussion about how to improve the EPN would be best left by the sidelines or relagated to private channels while we give it time to ripen in its current state. So I'm going to give it a rest and try to focus on some centrifugal objects, some new content.
It's all a silly joke anyway (a core of my personal philosophy) - doc is right about one thing - that we shouldn't take ourselves so seriously. Funny though that it was his post that sparked this szechuan ludicrous. Isn't it ironic, don't you think?
I think it's cool that you invited him back on, but I don't think you should erase the post, because it is a natural thing that comes about, and editing it out would be unrealistic. What if the world blew up, and the pizza network was flung into deep space where in 100000 years aliens find it - the last remenant of our culture? To pretend that we aren't half-mindless apes who can barely control our primitive fighting instincts would be dishonest. There are reasons why the world is so fucked up and we aren't going to be able to address them if we ignore them. I say leave it up.
Normally I would blame this sort of thing on me not having a very likable face.. Then I thought, wait, no one can see my face on the internet.. Then I remembered, there's that silly picture of my face!
It seems that when there are no posts, it sort of propagates no posts.. Like, when there are dead periods here, posting anything seems to get it going again.
The recent PD patch I posted, doesn't even really work, and is a total piece of shit, but I posted it to show people who doen't know about dsp what it's about and how unskilled people like myself can get it to make some squeaks and stutters. And then I put in some links like to the max home page and to miller pucket (who I think is really interesting).
What I'm trying to say is that the patch embarassed me. Like, if you actually went to the moroder video, or the stevie wonder video, you'd see some real skill, whereas my broke-ass program is a shy imitiation. So, maybe it came off as pretentious, but it was really just an ice-breaker. See, I like to post half-finished stuff, or stuff that doesn't totally work, because it's usually things that are getting stuck in my own head because I'm afraid of failing with them. So posting them is like saying, "it's ok, this doesn't really work yet, or isn't that great, but it's not the end of the world either".
I didn't really think anyone had a particular problem with the length of posts or replies, but yea we do go on and on sometimes. But, you know, you can always just skip it.
And if this was just about having a problem with me, than you should have just said that instead of dissing the entire network of people.
That said, I'm not going to write in this thread anymore, I've said what I wanted to say, let's move on.
I joined EPN with enthusiasm and great hope that the kind of conversations we have together in our livingrooms or bed-rooms or cars, the ones about whale-leather and tempurpedic capes, alll of them, could be made public and that anyone could throw their two cents in, THAT COLLABORATION AND REFINEMENT OF IDEAS WOULD COME OUT OF IT.
and then I felt a shift in the energy. This is not because of my judgement about the people posting, not because of their content, but of how it is presented... a manner of talking about things makes it seem like a pissing
contest, and almost as though people were using it as forum to TALK
ABOUT THEMSELF AND WHAT THEY WERE DOING, not art or practice.
many posts came off to me as "look how cool I am" NOT "look how
cool this is/couldbe/lets make it cool together". Like we're all in a big gym together and we could play anygame we just have to come up with one together to really make it work! So my "lose the pretension" post had alot of pent up aggression in it, but also I was upset with whole system that accepted what I viewed as ego-wanking. eff-gwazdor took it personally, which it seems many people did, but he also read into it and saw that there was something rotten in EPN, and that I did also mean dickwands as a refrence to the lack of girls posting. WHY? That shouldn't just be a question, a solution should be devised... what made me so upset about some of the posts was that they would just alk on end about the process or who was hanging out with them when they did it, and all this exteraneous BLOGCAGE that was about the person and not EPN or the ART
I don't agree with your statement that other people are scared to post stuff because of "posts like mine".... I think that the people on EPN,
reading it, checking it out, aren't showing what they're up to because
of a lack of format. Not everyone can write so eloquently or
profusely as g-reg, and the funny thing is, his work doesn't usually
need much explanation its always really strong and engaging. So how, for instance, does someone who doesn't enjoy writing, but really likes to draw, show a drawing in a blog where the only examples of posted work are not
just work but some bit of personal hype/explanation tacked on to it.
I think that just posting the image or link, or song, and leaving the
text to the comments, another place where the artist can explain
themselves might encourage some people to post. Or instead of an explanation how about a question???? those encourage people to think. But then there are posts like henry's one about the lake, and eff-gwazdor's contest for craziest cult site, which are all explanation, and that's an integral part of the work, the explanation.
THE IMPORTANT THING IS THIS BLOG IS SUPER AMAZING AND I WAS IN A BAD MOOD AND CRAZY STRESSED WITH WORKING ON A MILLION PROJECTS AND I DIDNT HAVE THE TIME TO SET MYSELF STRAIGHT AND SAY ALL THIS IN THE FIRST PLACE. I HOPE THAT PEOPLE CAN FORGET THE MEAN PARTS AND REMEMBER WHO THEY ART.
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